The trouble with writing puzzle games.

fire7side

I've written adventure games, some of which had mini puzzle games within them. The real problem with them is that you have no idea if they are too hard or too easy because you know the solution. I like puzzle games, too.
A strategy game, you can play. An action game, you can play. A puzzle game, you have to find some game testers to try it out and you'll get answers all over the map.

Dschoonmaker

Not only do you know the solution, but you also know every little aspect of the game really well, so it's easier for you than another person who hasn't worked on it.

fire7side

Yeah. What I do is tend to make them too easy because I take all that into account. I get some complaints that way, but it's better than the other way around. I once put a sliding block puzzle in an adventure game, and countless people complained about it and many gave up. It was just a six piece type which is considered moderate. I think it was 6 or 8 or something. I noticed though, I should have been a little more careful with the picture I used because two pieces ended up looking almost identical. It might have been that, or they just have too much trouble with sliding block puzzles. I did it with someone else, and we ended up putting a bypass button on it. It was the only puzzle in the game anyone complained about.

Megalomaniak

@fire7side said: I noticed though, I should have been a little more careful with the picture I used because two pieces ended up looking almost identical. It might have been that, or they just have too much trouble with sliding block puzzles.

It was probably that. That's a pretty obvious problem, even when the players realize that as the issue many might not feel like trying to get the two pieces switched around again.

fire7side

Yeah, live and learn. Although, a lot of people do hate those sliding block puzzles. If you don't see how they work, they can be maddening.

Dschoonmaker

I agree, it's better to make it too easy than too frustrating(and in my opinion, lots of modern games are getting too easy). Have you ever played the legend of zelda games? The puzzles in them can be frustrating for a lot of people, and the games are often just unclear about what you have to do next.

fire7side

No, I only have a pc. I would like to play the Zelda games, though. That's the way it is though with puzzles. For one person the solution is obvious, for another they don't have the slightest idea what to do. Hints are very hard to do also. At least in game hints are. I've published a hint list with a game already and not one person complained about it and I got a large number of downloads. I don't think it's fair to make the player scour the internet looking for a walkthrough. I think they are better than a walkthrough also because you can have them click for only that hint, so they don't end up reading all the solutions. And if it is something like a sliding block puzzle, a bypass button may be the only way of dealing with it, but I don't think I'll ever use one of those again.

Dschoonmaker

Most players would rather not use walkthroughs, and certainly not skipping.

fire7side

I've been in the adventuring community for quite a while and don't know very many that haven't used a walkthrough. It's either that or quit the game basically. That's just how they work. That's why there are walkthroughs posted for pretty much every adventure game out there. The only bypass I can remember is The Seventh Guest. That's becaused they used that type of minigame throughout. The modern way to do it is to provide ingame hints in the hidden object games because they use those types of puzzles. The hint basically just walks you through the solution. I've played a few of those that provided a bypass because there wasn't a way to walk you through a hint system because it was a sliding block type of puzzle. There is nothing you can do for that other than provide a bypass. It's a different kind of puzzle from an inventory puzzle and some people can't do them. Me, I'm better at those than the inventory puzzles.

fire7side

I've heard the complaint that if a puzzle doesn't fit we shouldn't have it, but it is similar to the complaint that an rpg fight needs to contribute to the story. It's game play. It needs to somewhat fit with the story, but it doesn't have to be original or perfectly fit or anything else. It is game play added to the story, or actually the story is just something added to the game play, because a story without game play isn't a game but not vice versa. I play turn based strategy or some type of puzzle game mostly. I don't see anywhere near enough variety in a shooter and in most rpgs that rely on action.. Once you put a puzzle in context, it's hard to recognize. They are really hard to write, I know that, because they do have to fit with the context of the set. I don't think games use enough puzzles, really. I don't think a game should be all action. It's like making the frosting the main part of the cake. You build up to a point to where action is the only alternative. Then again, I'm working on a dungeon crawler, but it's a strategy game.

Megalomaniak

@fire7side said: ...but it is similar to the complaint that an rpg fight needs to contribute to the story. It's game play. It needs to somewhat fit with the story, but it doesn't have to be original or perfectly fit or anything else.

I've played a lot of RPGs over the years and I don't think I've ever heard that one before. The argument in my experience should be that it should fit the game world and the characters doing the fighting. Though even this might be less relevant when it comes to ARPGs...

fire7side

Well, the exact complaints are that the fights are just random, and they sort of grind. Which can be true or not. You can definitely have too many fights in my book, like I was alluding to, but if they are randomly thrown in or what, that doesn't really apply to how good the game is. To me, they need to be structured with an ever increasing level of skill. And I don't really like the overload of choices that rpgs seem to be obsessed with. Chess has very few different moves, an 8x8 board, and an almost infinite level of variation and skill building that lasts a lifetime.

fire7side

It depends on the world you create. If it's a realistic world, then you have to have realistic puzzles. If it's crazy fantasy, then anything fits because it's crazy fantasy. That's why you don't throw a puzzle into a race car game unless it's something that requires a split second decision. That's the world you are dealing with. If it was an Alice in Wonderland world, you could throw a puzzle into a race car game that stopped it dead and everyone would say it was brilliant. Most puzzles just by their nature won't fit a perfectly realistic situation unless they are physical puzzles or lock type, which tend to be pretty boring. Most people will suspend reality a little bit. You have to be aware of your audience also. Action gamers aren't going to have much patience but will still appreciate a simple puzzle once in a while. Adventure games kind of morphed into hidden object games. I still play them off and on.