Godot 3 kickstarter tutorial question(s)

GDquest

@justinbarrett said: still for me 8k+ euros is enough for me to live on for 4 months...easily

Please add the 60 workdays involved in the campaign (~3 months worth of work for an average employee), take in account taxes, fixed costs linked to my status, and the fact I'm an independent worker. It's great for me, but it's not a lot of money for a French freelancer. Especially as I'd like to pay collaborators and hire people eventually. A good developer? 60k/year. A good community manager? 30-40k/year.

Then, the Kickstarter clearly states it's for a premium course. It's clear, the backers know what they get into. Yet the count keeps growing. You should give this discussion a look on Reddit.

MechFive

First of all congratulations to GDquest for what is soon to be a successful kick-starter campaign! I've watched GDquests Krita tutorials and they are great, the work he does is on the par. ;)

Though I'm a little concerned about this campaign being promoted on Godot Engine home page. Why is Godot promoting 3rd-party commercial products? See now there are two ads for this course where I (and maybe others) are expecting maybe soon to have some update on the engine process.

IMO now one individual has an clear advantage over someone else trying to maybe make a living out of making tutorials. I'm not opposed on someone campaigning his project on forums (I believe it would have been just as successful as GDquest is I believe quite well known instructor on the open source program field) and elsewhere, but an endorsement in the official home page? I don't know now I feel there are soon ads in Godot news section to go fund this and that.

I realize it's carefully curated on who gets this kind of opportunity and maybe this is a one off thing. I just feel like this is socially a bit awkward. This is just how I feel about all of this and if someone has good argument on an aspect that I didn't realize on the matter I will gladly accept it and change my opinion on the case ;)

whooshfrosted

@MechFive "Why is Godot promoting 3rd-party commercial products? "

They also tell us about commercial games made with Godot on the main website, and on their main Twitter feed. Do you think that information should be removed as well?

"IMO now one individual has an clear advantage over someone else trying to maybe make a living out of making tutorials. "

There are no other individuals making a full time living, making tutorials for Godot and that is a problem. If you had read the thread, you would know that professionals and schools won't make content for open source software, because they don't take its user base seriously, apparently.

"I just feel like this is socially a bit awkward. This is just how I feel about all of this and if someone has good argument on an aspect that I didn't realize on the matter I will gladly accept it and change my opinion on the case "

I don't feel socially awkward when a newsworthy item is posted, because it is a news section. That means they should post items of major interest that are occurring in the Godot world. On a game website I post at, in their News Section they regularly post in great detail news of Kickstarters in the style of games, the website's user base is interested in, because without that community support, those games would never get made. Should I feel awkward about it? It never occurred to me. I just want the games I like made.

"if someone has good argument on an aspect that I didn't realize on the matter I will gladly accept it and change my opinion on the case"

If you read the link posted by GDQuest to Reddit, you would see he has bought 1 million views to the Krita website with his tutorials. Do you think promotion like that is good for Godot?

Two engines before I tried Godot, I was using an engine where the guy did not promote it, and due to his autism he would not join in partnerships with other people either. And guess what? Because of his purist ideals, it is a quality engine that no one uses. This is bad for him because he gets almost no sales, and it is a disservice to his customers because they can find no one to partner with, nor can they find employment using it. Why use an engine with no users, when you can go to Unreal or Unity with their big communities instead? And that is what his users eventually did. If you don't promote and make partnerships you slowly die.

GDquest

@MechFive said: IMO now one individual has an clear advantage over someone else trying to maybe make a living out of making tutorials.

The developers support anyone who supports Godot. They promote games made with Godot (even commercial ones), companies that use Godot...

Consider this: if I'm around for a year covering the engine, that's a year of communication for the project. Something extremely rare for open source projects, yet essential to their growth. That's a lot of support from a professional content creator. A lot of new users. Better educational material too, both paid and free. Contributions to the docs where it's needed, not just where I'd like to make changes. It's more professionals looking into the engine too, including companies that have the money to donate to the project.

Why am I the first to get a news post of that nature? Nobody else started such a project! It doesn't come out of nowhere. We spent a lot of time discussing it, got the opinion of the community, talked with reduz... it started back around last November, in 2016. I proved I'm willing to work hard, to help, and that I can be trusted to deliver. Akien reviews almost everything to ensure I live up to my engagements.

Would have it been a success without the support of the developers? After the launch, it seems so. But you can't imagine how much of a snowball effect you need for a crowdfunding campaign to work. How much the first 24 hours influence the 29 days that come after it. How many hours go into it and how risky it is. Last week, I worked over 80 net hours, with 10 hours commuting to the office. I didn't take a day off since the start of May.

Now we can say it worked. But it worked because nothing was left to chance. In the end, the extra money means large contributions to Godot where it's lacking.

whooshfrosted

Another thing that occurred to me, if schools and other professionals won't make content for open source software, professional game companies aren't going to use it either, because there will be nothing they can reliably train their staff with. So when a professional content creator wants to do something with your engine, the smart thing is to embrace them.

Partnerships are just as important as quality code. If you ignore one of the two the engine will die. If you have seen what I saw, you would understand. I wasted 4 or 5 years on a good engine, who's user base got smaller every year.

MechFive

First off I already congratulated on your success, everyone has to work hard that is a granted on this field so not going to congratulate on that, and I absolutely didn't mean to undermine your efforts in any way if that is what you got out of my comment.

I meant down the line where there might be more endeavours to KS something that is essentially paid 3rd party add-on. I would get it if the news section was used to commission something to Godot engine that would be free and part of Godot after the commissioning has been funded. In this case I would back this project instantly, even though the content of this course might not be best suited for me (the only reason I'm not aboard already).

Now we run the risk that someone might KS say an add-on to Godot that would introduce an significant boost to Godot engine but it would be an 3rd party add-on behind a pay-wall. I don't get why Godot engine wishes to endorse this kind of development since it deviates quite from the nature of what I thought is Godot engine. And by endorsing I mean in the front page like this kind of practice is essential for Godot. Why not give this support where other product support is given?

So I feel like other arguments were besides my point (though granted, I didn't articulate it very well in the first place). Ones goal is to get as much visibility to his work in order to get it to sell, so that is a granted, not something to be held as ransom or argument in the matter. I never meant that this was a bad project that is happening, quite the opposite, it is fantastic and healthy for the engine. It is only advertised on slightly wrong section for the product that it is after finished.

I'm merely raising my concern for the news of this project to get prime position in the Godot engine home page and what the implications of that might be if this was not one time occurrence. News section would be an effective way to commission something for the engine, but to use it to get community funding for paid 3rd party product isn't healthy in large quantities I feel.

GDquest

@MechFive said: I absolutely didn't mean to undermine your efforts in any way if that is what you got out of my comment.

No worries, no offense taken! I appreciate the conversation, it's interesting.

I'm merely raising my concern for the news of this project to get prime position in the Godot engine home page and what the implications of that might be if this was not one time occurrence.

If similar projects were to pop more and more (it'll probably still take time), the way the communication is done would likely change. I.e. there's Blendernation and other platforms like the Blender market to promote the work of the community now. As far as the official website, you'd likely see a shop pop or something else separate from the main project. That's speculation on my end but Akien has been in the open source world for a long time, and he knows what he's doing.

Again, the Kickstarter funds both free and paid content. The free part is free as in free speech, and includes big contributions that no one else has the time to take care of now (working on the docs). The project is in a state where there's a lot to be done and they need all the help they can get. And we're pragmatic about it: if there's someone here for ~1 year full-time (maybe more), it's going to benefit everyone.

We should bring the conversation to what we consider free software to entail, the principles we follow, the values we act for. I'll write up on that ASAP, but first gotta go catch the train! :smile:

EDIT: First of all, free software doesn't have anything to do with paid/unpaid. You certainly know it, but not everyone does as the word is confusing. The web is filled with companies that produce open source technologies and offer paid services at the same time. When they have the funds, these technologies evolve fast as a result. Anyone can still access the sources, modify them, learn from them, fork them. See React, made by Facebook initially. The community pushed it forward and built a robust ecosystem around it.

If your goal is to push the technology forward, have a stronger impact on the world, you must put man-hours into it. And in our world, this means you need money. I've done a lot of benevolent work in the past and seen it fail to make a difference. The collaboration on the Kickstarter is the result of a pragmatic exchange, above all things: there's something to gain for everyone here. It also answers a demand from the community, and relaying the info is beneficial to those persons, even though some are uncomfortable with the idea.

Rukiri

@whooshfrosted said: ". I make a modest living, feed and cloth my family etc...but any frivolous spending is for birthdays and Christmas..."

So how did you afford a computer with a 3D card? They aren't cheap

".also the linux users mindset is to support foss and foss suporters(like a teacher :) ), but we are generally not a wealthy bunch...some are, but in general nope."

You are speaking for some Linux users. Sounds like they are the reason why commercial developers won't give the platform any of their time.

I was motivated to move to Linux, because I resented spyware masquerading as an operating system. Personal wealth or socialist ideas had nothing to do with it. People who remain on Windows and Apple, I genuinely feel sorry for them, because I know what is being done with their information. So I like the open software part the most.

"I will probably never pay for any tutorial."

If you want free tutorials there are tons on Youtube. After reading the documentation, I used them to fill in areas I didn't understand. The information is out there, but instead of costing you some money to get it in one place, it will cost you a lot of your time to go out and find it.

"still for me 8k+ euros is enough for me to live on for 4 months.."

And what would you do for the rest of the year? Hold Kickstarters 3 times every year? This guy makes a living teaching FOSS, as he explained its not easy. He has to eat just like you and your family, lets let him do it. ;) If you are truly FOSS than you'd be using FOSS hardware as well which...barely exists and the performance is so bad why bother... I wouldn't take FOSS to Richard Stallman extremes that's just downright loony.

MechFive

@GDquest

Well I've decided to back this project, as it helps the community greatly (this was clear from the start) and because the work you do is truly exceptional. Thinking it trough I also believe to learn a great deal from this course :) . This project is beneficial for everyone and this content will induce more users and developers around Godot. Selling advanced lessons to ones gain is just a sensible thing to conduct business vice.

My concerns regarding the way this product was introduced stands alleviated as you speculated it to have been an occurrence emerged from a dire need. For future reference I still think the front page should be used for commissioning deals if any and these type of products endorsed elsewhere, but I guess that is indeed an untimely concern for now.

I don't hold it against you on having a good business intuition nor do I tell how you should conduct your business and what to do with your products, since that is definitely not my place nor do I in anyway disagree with your methods. I was ultimately trying to reach the development teams attention for some explanation as why endorse paid product like this and if this is to occur more in the future.

We are all here to make ends meet and maybe then some. I'll be damned if spend my whole life making cardboard boxes (not even kidding, I have the most uninteresting job The Simpsons came up with :D ) for living. So everyone or at least most of us are around this FOSS for monetary benefit and it is how this world works. All this said, good luck and lot of strength with this important undertaking and may it be good! ;)

Megalomaniak

@Rukiri said: If you are truly FOSS than you'd be using FOSS hardware as well which...barely exists and the performance is so bad why bother...

Last I checked OpenRISC is nowhere near mature enough for physical manufacturing...

justinbarrett

I just want to apologize if I immediately sent this post down a road that a lot of threads go...I stand by my word, but I still hope you the best of luck with your project...anyone who chooses to nitpick through peoples comments...well...it is clear that you have nothing better to do...so I will leave it at that.

GDquest

@justinbarrett said: if I immediately sent this post down a road that a lot of threads go...

Nah, we're having a conversation here, not an argument. And the topic at hand isn't related to your post, so no worries.

Thoughts develop through the use of the language. It's important to engage in detailed discussions if you're looking to evolve your perspective or develop your understanding of a given topic. To me, it's not a waste of time. Anyway if you're going to engage with a diverse community on a daily basis, you'd better be ready to face people who have radically different cultures and thoughts as you do - and there's nothing like conversations to prepare you to that.

Kiori

@MechFive said: GDquest

Well I've decided to back this project, as it helps the community greatly (this was clear from the start) and because the work you do is truly exceptional.

For the record, this is the reason there is an announcement about the kickstarter in the forum. I mean, it's good for Godot and all, but... No one, none of the devs certainly, would be backing this if it wasn't content of the highest quality.

Gdquest has been doing great video tutorials for a long while now, Godot will benefit immensely from his contributions And we are happy to help! :blush:

justinbarrett

I'm not concerned about people harassing or giving me a hard time or being criticized for that matter...I'm not a child after all..the issue is when I see the same people who just haunt the forums who's sole endeavor is to say that they are right and others are wrong..it does nothing but distract from the topic and fan flames for others to chime in...this is the internet after all and according to the rules of the internet "I am right and you are wrong"....based on the given poster. anyway...I guess I am done here..once again good luck.

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