Professional Trade or Job Section review

urieluriel Posts: 59Member
edited September 2019 in Forum Chat

Hi guys,
i did a tour in this section (Professional Trade) to look at some people to employ and i would like to make some suggestion, please

Introduction:
First, i suppose that this section can be improve in many ways but primary to get a better view over what is happening.
The fact that people are looking for jobs and employees are a very good sign to me. And it should be put as a separated "Main sections including sub-sections: Paid works, Voluntary job, Employement and finally Godot Dev job (permanent or temporary). This will make some effect over the new users and community members, and give a chance to access godot´s professional income.

i recommend here to not start a section for people who are looking for job, it doesnt really need this, does it ?
Publications are for those who have something to offer, in particular a job, and secondary money.
this is enough a responsability for you guys (from the forum, i dont know your name), to moderate the section and look at the content ;)

"Also, but far from it, could be nice to have a section somewhere for community projects (not paid but between users)"

i comeback to the topic , the "job" section...
Well, i dont think you need to change the format, but it would be nice to have some exclusive and optional tags, and i suppose some filters in the search bar ;)
i want to talk about some of the most important information that are required in case of job offers. I think that a first "headered" topic that should appear on top of the discussions is the suggestions and/or recommandations in case someone want to offer a job, to make everyone confident during the process, things must be clear and precise, otherwise that would end with everything and nothing more than "bullsh.." a minimum of format and data is required to validate the post, in some ways...
thoses data are:
[COUNTRY] - [ORGANISATION NAME] - [END DATE]
This should appear in the tittle, for sure !
ps: The end date is inportant as the order of the list of discussions is based on last-first ;) People will get a quick view as the limit date to propose himself for the job and decide accordingly to contact and show his portefolio... and finally, after the date is passed, what is happening after the date ? the discussion is archived ? removed ? i dont know...

i think it doesnt need to have the salary or any info about the rate, when people connect to each other in case the portefolio is accepted, people will speak about the money on their own, but people can do what they like, including the salary or not.
i wish you a nice day, hope that review can help
bye

uriel

{On the profil page, table "About", the badge text and the badge value are inverted... }

Comments

  • keltwookiekeltwookie Posts: 235Member

    @uriel
    Very good idea !
    But the feasibility of such a project within Vanilla has yet to be tested, knowing that it will require a lot of work, including perhaps modifications and/or additions to the database.

  • urieluriel Posts: 59Member

    @keltwookie said:
    @uriel
    Very good idea !
    But the feasibility of such a project within Vanilla has yet to be tested, knowing that it will require a lot of work, including perhaps modifications and/or additions to the database.

    Not so much or i didnt express myself correctly ! :) all thoses features can be done by Vanilla plugins (they all exist in the addon manager), and the sub-categories can be added the simple way ;)
    if you need help for testing some of thoses modules, let me know
    bye

    uriel

  • keltwookiekeltwookie Posts: 235Member

    @uriel said:
    Not so much or i didnt express myself correctly ! :) all thoses features can be done by Vanilla plugins (they all exist in the addon manager), and the sub-categories can be added the simple way ;)
    if you need help for testing some of thoses modules, let me know...

    Ah yes, I forgot that Vanilla propose numerous plugins. Good to know that some exist which could help to such project.
    Thanks for the offer, it could be usefull :+1:

  • TwistedTwiglegTwistedTwigleg Posts: 2,635Admin

    Thank you for your feedback, we will consider it.

  • MegalomaniakMegalomaniak Posts: 2,618Admin
    edited September 2019

    @uriel said:
    "Also, but far from it, could be nice to have a section somewhere for community projects (not paid but between users)"

    I'd say the Projects section is fine for that, with that said while I never had thought about it before I think a community project tag or something like that might be a good addition. What do you think?

    @uriel said:
    I think that a first "headered" topic that should appear on top of the discussions is the suggestions and/or recommandations in case someone want to offer a job, to make everyone confident during the process, things must be clear and precise...
    thoses data are:
    [COUNTRY] - [ORGANISATION NAME] - [END DATE]
    This should appear in the tittle, for sure !

    A good guideline would certainly not hurt, no. Definitely worth thinking about and discussing thoroughly.

    @uriel said:
    {On the profil page, table "About", the badge text and the badge value are inverted... }

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean, could you elaborate a bit more? edit: nevermind, I see it now, yeah i think I've noted that before, and I think it could probably be simply hidden altogether, since you already have that list of badges as icons.

    @keltwookie said:
    @uriel
    Very good idea !
    But the feasibility of such a project within Vanilla has yet to be tested, knowing that it will require a lot of work, including perhaps modifications and/or additions to the database.

    To be fair, vanilla is very extensible through addons, the Questions topic type is an addon, the reactions are an addon, private messages is essentially a bundled addon, vanilla itself is basically an addon to Garden...

    But an addon does take work, and a good implementation requires a good well thought through design, too.

  • TwistedTwiglegTwistedTwigleg Posts: 2,635Admin

    @uriel said:
    The fact that people are looking for jobs and employees are a very good sign to me. And it should be put as a separated "Main sections including sub-sections: Paid works, Voluntary job, Employement and finally Godot Dev job (permanent or temporary). This will make some effect over the new users and community members, and give a chance to access godot´s professional income.

    I agree that it is good that people are looking for jobs and employees for Godot. That said, I do not think adding additional categories is going to necessarily help.

    I rarely go to the individual categories, but instead use the "Recent Discussions" tab. If most users on the forums do this, which I suspect they do, then adding more categories is not going to make the Professional Trade topics anymore visible than they were before. It will only help those looking through the categories, and only if the topics are properly placed.

    This means that both users and the forum staff will need to make sure that topics are placed in the correct categories for additional categories to have a benefit. Right now, I do not think the benefits are worth the extra effort that would make for everyone involved.

    @uriel said:
    i recommend here to not start a section for people who are looking for job, it doesnt really need this, does it ?

    I highly disagree. If we have a Professional Trade section, then it should allow people looking for a job to post.

    If we only allow people to post jobs, then the section should be called "Godot Jobs", not "Professional Trade". People who are looking for jobs should be able to post, as employers can see their experience, portfolio, and then potentially contact the user(s) before making a public post. It would be a disservice to those looking for employment if we removed their ability to post that they are looking for jobs.

    @uriel said:
    ... this is enough a responsability for you guys (from the forum, i dont know your name), to moderate the section and look at the content :wink:

    I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here, to be honest.

    If you want to see who is on the forums staff, please check the list of forum staff.

    @uriel said:
    "Also, but far from it, could be nice to have a section somewhere for community projects (not paid but between users)"

    @Megalomaniak said:
    I'd say the Projects section is fine for that, with that said while I never had thought about it before I think a community project tag or something like that might be a good addition. What do you think?

    I agree with Megalomaniak, that is really what the projects section is for. I'm fine with adding something like "community project" as a tag, because currently do not have something like that and it could be helpful to have.

    Well, i dont think you need to change the format, but it would be nice to have some exclusive and optional tags, and i suppose some filters in the search bar :wink:

    As for additional filters in the search bar, that is by no means a minor undertaking. Adding additional filters for jobs would require adding additional metadata to all topics, or at least all new topics, and that would require a LOT of work to do correctly.

    Right now I don't have the time to dedicate to adding additional filters. If anyone wants to add additional filters, the source code for the plugin is on GitHub.

    @uriel said:
    ... a minimum of format and data is required to validate the post, in some ways...
    ... and finally, after the date is passed, what is happening after the date ? the discussion is archived ? removed ? i dont know...

    If we add something, it should be a template or guideline, and it should not necessarily be required. Different jobs may have different needs, especially when you consider different languages/cultures/etc. That said, having a good guideline/template could be beneficial. As @Megalomaniak said, a guideline/template would require thorough planning and discussion.

    As far as validating goes, that would be hard and time consuming to implement.
    Writing a custom plugin would be difficult and using an existing plugin has its own issues (and may require modifications). If we use a plugin, we have to make sure it doesn't mark a valid post as invalid, which requires a lot of testing, debugging, and work.

    @uriel said:
    all thoses features can be done by Vanilla plugins (they all exist in the addon manager), and the sub-categories can be added the simple way :wink:

    Even with existing plugins, there is still a lot of additional work that would go into something like this.

    Several of the plugins we use on the forums we maintain or make adjustments to. We do this so the plugins work successfully with the forums and the other plugins. On top of this, every plugin we add potentially slows the operation of the forums, introduces security vulnerabilities, and/or does not work with other plugins we have on the forums. Then we have to make sure the style of the plugin matches the forum's theme, and if it doesn't then we need to make adjustments.


    Personally, I think it is probably better for those seeking employment/employees in Godot related works to use websites and services specifically designed for professional jobs. Websites like LinkedIn, Upwork, Indeed, Freelancer, or Flexjobs for example.

    (Side note: I'm not endorsing or saying any these websites are the best for finding jobs, I'm just saying they are structured specifically for the task of helping employees find jobs and employers post jobs)

    Posting and looking for jobs on websites/services dedicated to professional jobs is a win-win situation for the community. Having more Godot related activity on professional jobs sites/services will help cement Godot development as a viable job opportunity. Those looking for jobs will be more visible to those within the industry and will have experience using tools that can help them land jobs in other parts of the industry.

    I think here on the forums, we'll have a pretty hard time competing with the features, support, and visibility of websites/services designed specifically for jobs. The forums should be for the community first and foremost.

    I'm not sure anyone has actually gotten any work done through the Professional Trade section. I personally have not seen any topics with the Professional Trade section leading to a completed job publicly in the 3+ years I've been on the forums. It could be jobs are completed privately, but I imagine they'd close the topic and/or marked that they are not looking for jobs anymore.
    To be honest, if the Professional Trade section has not actually helped anyone, then we might want to remove it. There is little reason for having a section that is not benefiting anyone.

    Regardless, these are just my opinions. I do appreciate the feedback, I'm just not sure on how viable implementing the changes will be.

  • MegalomaniakMegalomaniak Posts: 2,618Admin

    @TwistedTwigleg said:

    I agree with Megalomaniak, that is really what the projects section is for. I'm fine with adding something like "community project" as a tag, because currently do not have something like that and it could be helpful to have.

    Now that I think about it Collab or Collaborative might be good candidates because the tag shouldn't be too long.

    @TwistedTwigleg said:
    Personally, I think it is probably better for those seeking employment/employees in Godot related works to use websites and services specifically designed for professional jobs. Websites like LinkedIn, Upwork, Indeed, Freelancer, or Flexjobs for example.

    (Side note: I'm not endorsing or saying any these websites are the best for finding jobs, I'm just saying they are structured specifically for the task of helping employees find jobs and employers post jobs)

    Posting and looking for jobs on websites/services dedicated to professional jobs is a win-win situation for the community. Having more Godot related activity on professional jobs sites/services will help cement Godot development as a viable job opportunity. Those looking for jobs will be more visible to those within the industry and will have experience using tools that can help them land jobs in other parts of the industry.

    I think here on the forums, we'll have a pretty hard time competing with the features, support, and visibility of websites/services designed specifically for jobs. The forums should be for the community first and foremost.

    By and large I agree.

    @TwistedTwigleg said:
    I'm not sure anyone has actually gotten any work done through the Professional Trade section. I personally have not seen any topics with the Professional Trade section leading to a completed job publicly in the 3+ years I've been on the forums. It could be jobs are completed privately, but I imagine they'd close the topic and/or marked that they are not looking for jobs anymore.
    To be honest, if the Professional Trade section has not actually helped anyone, then we might want to remove it. There is little reason for having a section that is not benefiting anyone.

    I have finished one privately for someone before, and yes, privately. Though if we do create guidelines, one point should probably be for the job poster to post a reply indicating they had found someone to fulfill the job I think.

  • TwistedTwiglegTwistedTwigleg Posts: 2,635Admin

    @Megalomaniak said:
    Now that I think about it Collab or Collaborative might be good candidates because the tag shouldn't be too long.

    True, and then the tag could apply to other topics as well. So long as nobody has an issue with it, adding Collab/Collaborative works for me.

    @Megalomaniak said:
    I have finished one privately for someone before, and yes, privately. Though if we do create guidelines, one point should probably be for the job poster to post a reply indicating they had found someone to fulfill the job I think.

    Good to know! I have no issue with keeping the Professional Trade section if it gets use, but from what I'd seen it didn't appear to be, so I thought it wasn't really helping anyone. Now knowing that it indeed gets use, I have no issue keeping it.

    I agree that if we add guide lines, then adding a point about the job being fulfilled is a good idea, if nothing else other than it helps indicate which jobs are still available.

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